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Traveller-digest     Friday, November 26 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1399<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Vargr (Was: Re: Weapons of mass destruction)<BR>
Re: Vargr (Was: Re: Weapons of mass destruction)<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
Re: YKYBPTMTW:<BR>
RE: Ended the campaign?... Ended The Campaign?!?<BR>
Skipping & ship cost <BR>
ship cost<BR>
Re: ship cost<BR>
Flagships<BR>
Re: ship cost<BR>
Re: Inetability of government failure<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED God bless America<BR>
Re: Remulak<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Skipping & ship cost<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 15:30:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr (Was: Re: Weapons of mass destruction)<BR>
<BR>
At 06:52 PM 11/25/1999 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>The Great Old One Templar Inquisitor Doug the Penguin Guy.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 00:49:48 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr (Was: Re: Weapons of mass destruction)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
> <BR>
> TML Great Old One<BR>
> Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
> Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
gridlore... GridLore... GRIDLORE...<BR>
<BR>
*BOOM*<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:37:06 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
> From: Steven Hudson<BR>
>   More simply, it could just be that Anatolia is home to (a) certain <BR>
> organization(s) that knows many things, most certainly including<BR>
> Secrets Sophonts Were Not Mean To Know. Of course, such outlandish<BR>
> theories are always discredited.<BR>
> <BR>
>   But they would be of course, wouldn't they?   <fnord><BR>
<BR>
So, did the descendants of the Vilani survey team move to Anatolia after<BR>
the fall of Ninevah, or after the Persians rolled the Babylonians?<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:57:33 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
> Is this 'the Cassini Division' you're talking about? It's a while <BR>
> since I read it. (Star Faction / Sky Road? and the Stone Canal being <BR>
> the others I remember).<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, there's four to date, all in the same universe:<BR>
<BR>
The Star Fraction<BR>
The Cassini Division<BR>
The Stone Canal<BR>
The Sky Road<BR>
<BR>
Cassini Division is the one with the most stuff on the posthumans.  One of<BR>
the things they do is *infect computers*!  So the humans are forced, for a<BR>
time, to resort to the use of Babbage engines, and they have a bit of a<BR>
fleet out there watching what is going on, in a rather New Era setup.<BR>
<BR>
It's actually fairly Travellerish material.  Unfortunately there is only<BR>
one interstellar colony, described in Stone Canal, and they use a wormhole<BR>
method to get there.<BR>
<BR>
It's biggest weakness is the obscurity of the jokes - they're actually<BR>
pretty good, but you need an understanding of far-left political history to<BR>
get them.  It's on the level of someone being described as a "Transitional<BR>
Programmer" - a pun on the Trotskyist "Transitional Programme", crossed<BR>
with the idea of programming non-deterministic computer systems, like AIs.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:13:55 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: YKYBPTMTW:<BR>
<BR>
At 10:16 PM 11/24/99 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> Timothy Collinson wrote:<BR>
>>> >You Know You've Been Playing Too Much Traveller When:<BR>
>>> Or you walk across some hexagonal paving stones and expect to<BR>
take a<BR>
>>> week getting from one to another.<BR>
>><BR>
>> But you might be able to move more than one step at a time... :-)<BR>
><BR>
>I recall a time in the late 70s or eaerly 80s when a car dealership<BR>
>vacated their building downtown. For a long time they couldn't find<BR>
>anybody to rent it, and we joked about getting a bunch of gamers<BR>
>together and renting it. <BR>
><BR>
>You see, the first floor was almost entirely open, and tiled with 1"<BR>
>white ceramic *hex* tiles. Yeah, a hex map about 200 feet square. <BR>
><BR>
>Let's see. If I haven't dropped a decimal, that's 2400 hexes across.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	Anybody up for a realistic game of Brilliant Lances? With maybe some<BR>
'blind' rules?<BR>
<BR>
- -- Chaos reigns within. <BR>
      Reflect, repent, and reboot.<BR>
   Order shall return.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:29:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ended the campaign?... Ended The Campaign?!?<BR>
<BR>
- --- Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:<BR>
> Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
> >I always thought Papillon would be a good setting<BR>
> for<BR>
> >a Traveller prison adventure.  <BR>
> ><BR>
> >I mean, role-playing games are just the sort of<BR>
> places<BR>
> >to explore experiences that you might not want to<BR>
> have<BR>
> >in real life, like prison, horrible diseases,<BR>
> >abduction, serious physical trauma, having your<BR>
> mind<BR>
> >read, etc.  These experiences provide kind of a<BR>
> nice<BR>
> >contrast to getting rich quick and winning<BR>
> firefights,<BR>
> >which are also experiences that we don't usually<BR>
> have<BR>
> >in real life.<BR>
> <BR>
Kyle adds:<BR>
Anyone seen that brilliant flick, "Escape from<BR>
Absalom"?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:03:29 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Skipping & ship cost <BR>
<BR>
Michael blasted out from his distilled-curry powered<BR>
PC:<BR>
> Absolutely all codes are crackable. However this is<BR>
> <cue kettle drums> the<BR>
> future where  such 'codes' could be hideously<BR>
> complex. <BR>
 Kyle replied:<BR>
Complex, shomplex. If the damn thing is worth<BR>
millions, the PCs will make the effort (or maybe my<BR>
players are just dodgy individuals?) Besides, on those<BR>
week-long jumps with nothing out the window but swirly<BR>
grey jump space, what else is there to do?<BR>
<BR>
Michael said: <BR>
> Imagine <various wavy lines appear on scream as we<BR>
> view the future>. Skipped<BR>
> vessel arrives in imperial starport. Local bank<BR>
> branch has a feed from<BR>
> starport control... [etc]<BR>
><BR>
Kyle replied:<BR>
Imagine  <various wavy lines appear on scream as we<BR>
> view the future>. PCs plan ahead (hey, it happens<BR>
sometimes!) They swipe the transponder (57th century<BR>
number plate? Do they make them on that prison planet<BR>
in the other thread?) from another ship... or Engineer<BR>
Jo _makes_ her own transponder from scratch (made up<BR>
number plate!) I can _almost_ believe interstellar<BR>
banks could communicate with at Jump-6 and co-operate<BR>
with on the ground local law enforcement, and that the<BR>
local law would actually place a priority on such<BR>
things, but the idea that each local law agency has a<BR>
list of all ships everywhere and finds that yours is<BR>
unregistered...! No way. Just like today: if you've<BR>
never comitted a crime (or the records indicate nobody<BR>
of your name, or your ship has done so) then you;re<BR>
not on the records. <BR>
<BR>
An article recently described the volume of trade in<BR>
the Imperium; going on modern models, you;re looking<BR>
at a ton per person per year... what's the average<BR>
freight, then, per ship? Divide that into the number<BR>
of people in the Imperium, and that's how many ships<BR>
are flying around... even if .01% of them are Free<BR>
Traders and other PC-type ships, that's a heck of a<BR>
lot for the law to keep track of.<BR>
<BR>
I say, it'll be much like cars: so long as you don't<BR>
run anybody over or use the thing to rob a bank, the<BR>
law will pretty much leave you alone.<BR>
<BR>
Michael also said:<BR>
> Given the vast amount of monies invested,<BR>
> there would have to be a<BR>
> way to prevent skipping. <BR>
But Kyle riposted with:<BR>
which is why I said the ships would _have_ to be<BR>
cheaper, else PCs would never have them. Just as in<BR>
the present world, private individuals don't tend to<BR>
own container ships. Yachts, yeah...<BR>
<BR>
Michael finished with: <BR>
> I like the idea of cheaper ships though. That would<BR>
> solve a lot of problems<BR>
> (especially on the whole collateral issue).<BR>
Kyle had the last word:<BR>
Of course, the only other solution is that bansk won't<BR>
finance jump-capable ships... the PCs must spend the<BR>
first part of their career in a single system, making<BR>
enough to pay off the ship and get a jump drive...<BR>
Just an idea!:) <BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:22:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: ship cost<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote:<BR>
<<Getting the price of ships too low, though, has its<BR>
own problems. <BR>
<BR>
Military ships will always be much more expensive than<BR>
civilian<BR>
(even para-military/pirate) ships. They will have more<BR>
armor, more<BR>
expensive weapons and hiediously expensive sensors<BR>
that the civilian<BR>
ships won't have.<BR>
<BR>
So, let's limit our discussion to civilian ships.  For<BR>
*merchant<BR>
ships* just how low can we reasonably go and not wreak<BR>
the feel of<BR>
the game?<BR>
<BR>
20,000 per dton?<BR>
10,000 per dton?<BR>
<BR>
And what systems do we reduce in price to get the<BR>
total price down?  <BR>
<BR>
Power plant?<BR>
Jump Drive?<BR>
Sensors?>><BR>
<BR>
Kyle replied:<BR>
Well, IMTU as I've said it's from the old GURPS:<BR>
Space, so everything's cheaper... There are different<BR>
classes of hull available, though. I think we can all<BR>
imagine the difference between the hull on a four seat<BR>
Piper and an Apache! Also, the electronics is a huge<BR>
part of the cost. Military ships have much more<BR>
sophisticated systems overall. There's a big<BR>
difference in cost between collision-avoidance radar<BR>
and military targeting head-up-displays, and so on. If<BR>
anybody is interested in the exact costs, email me<BR>
privately and I'll send them, but it works out that<BR>
your standard free trader, unarmed, no stealth<BR>
ability, just enough engines to get it off largish<BR>
earth-type planets, Jump-1, a hull that's internally<BR>
tough but not armoured, and staterooms for the PCs,<BR>
about a quarter its volume for cargo, that'll set PCs<BR>
back, new, 500 kCr. Whereas your military fighter<BR>
ship, hugely manoeuverable, well armed and armoured,<BR>
sophisticated electronics and so on, will set you back<BR>
18 MCr.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, high tech and weapons cost a lot, ships<BR>
themselves, not so much.<BR>
<BR>
Of course the cheapest ever in my game came when the<BR>
PCs had fled their ship from a Vargr boarding party<BR>
and left it to self-destruct (a la The Enterprise),<BR>
and landed on a TL 7 world. The engineer was able to<BR>
produce a Jump drive by enrolling in the Research<BR>
department of a local university... But a ship? What<BR>
could they do? They noticed in the papers that there<BR>
were disarmanent talks going on (Balkanised world), so<BR>
they sold their Jump drive design to the local<BR>
national government in exchange for an old missile<BR>
submarine... the government thought they were idiots<BR>
because the sub had had its engines removed, and of<BR>
course the warheads. The PCs took the missiles out and<BR>
strapped them to the sides of the sub, hooked up the<BR>
diesel generator to the jump drive, recast the hatches<BR>
so that they'd resist pressure form the inside instead<BR>
of the outside, installed some comofortable seats, and<BR>
took off.<BR>
The Good Ship Jabberwocky, as it was known, did not go<BR>
far, but it got them off the world.<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:46:29 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ship cost<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 11/25/99 7:22 PM, kyle3054@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The Good Ship Jabberwocky, as it was known, did not go<BR>
> far, but it got them off the world.<BR>
<BR>
I love it. Are your rules based on or will they work with High Gaurd or<BR>
FF&S1 or 2? I am using HG now, but am looking for something a bit more<BR>
comprehensive and <fnord>heretical. Send me your ideas when convienient, I<BR>
like the disparity between military and civilian craft. Perhaps I could base<BR>
some of my home rule on your ideas? For use on my webpage, with your<BR>
permission of course, and due credit. :)<BR>
xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:49:06 -0600<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Flagships<BR>
<BR>
This is from the Dec99/Jan00 issue of Air & Space magazine. It may seem OT,<BR>
but there are a few adventure nuggets here...<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
<BR>
    "The two Air Force C-141 Starlifters were on their way to a rendezvous<BR>
with a KC-135 tanker over central Oregon one day in the summer of 1998 when<BR>
they heard a pilot calling Seattle Central to report that the engine of her<BR>
Cessna Turbo 210 had failed. She said she was going down. The voice was<BR>
calm, precise. Center was unaware of the Cessna pilot's dire circumstances<BR>
because the light aircraft's transmissions were blocked by the foothills in<BR>
the remote, forested area.<BR>
    The Air Force pilots, reservists with the 446th Airlift Wing at McCord<BR>
AFB in Washington, began relaying messages between the Cessna pilot and air<BR>
traffic control. The woman gave her altitude and position; she knew she was<BR>
too low to dead stick to any airport.<BR>
    "I see a road - too many trees!" There were no more transmissions.<BR>
    After alerting ATC, the transport pilots banked their huge aircraft and<BR>
began a dash toward the Cessna's last reported position, about 100 miles<BR>
away - 12 minutes by Starlifter. What they found there was a sea of green<BR>
pines stretching forever. The two airplanes split, the crew in one searching<BR>
north and the other south.<BR>
    Presently, flight engineer Master Sergeant Todd "Buck" Murray tapped<BR>
co-pilot Lieutenant Colonel Pete Buehn on the shoulder and pointed out the<BR>
right side window at what appeared to be a white log. Command Pilot Captain<BR>
Paul Parrinelli closed in for a better look. Bingo! A 210 buried among tall<BR>
pines. There was no sign of fire. Or life.<BR>
    The two transports began circling the Cessna, with the high one<BR>
transmitting news of its find. Help would be on its way, but the crews were<BR>
frustrated. Directly below was a pilot who, if alive, was probably hurt,<BR>
possibly dying, and they could do nothing except watch.<BR>
    Then off in the distance, they spotted a rooster tail of dust. They<BR>
zoomed toward it to investigate, hoping it was a rescue team. But it was<BR>
only a pickup truck galloping along one of several dirt and gravel logging<BR>
roads that cut through the forest. As the truck drew closer, now tooling<BR>
along a road that passed near the downed airplane, Parrinelli and Buehn had<BR>
a quick strategy session.<BR>
    Rod Holman, an alfalfa farmer, was taking a shortcut home through the<BR>
Fremont National Forest when he spotted the C-141's crisscrossing the road<BR>
up ahead. They were low. Way low. He slowed his Ford F250 so his wife and<BR>
boys could take in the improbable  airshow. Just then one of the grey<BR>
behemoths roared overhead, so low the truck shook in the wake that then<BR>
churned the tips of the surrounding pines. The aircraft pitched up and<BR>
banked hard to the right.<BR>
    "Holy smoke" uttered Holman. And then he spotted it. Over to the right,<BR>
about a 150 feet in the forest, was an airplane jammed in among the trees.<BR>
Holman stopped the truck, got out, and approached. At first he thought the<BR>
thing was abandoned, but as he got closer he saw fresh blood all over the<BR>
cockpit. <BR>
    He looked inside, dreading what he would find. But there was Patty<BR>
Burrell, shaken, but very much alive.  In fact, apart from a head gash and<BR>
some disorientation, the 69-year old instrument instructor was in remarkably<BR>
good condition.<BR>
    Just then the two Lockheeds roared by again, and in that instant Holman<BR>
understood the purpose of the pilots wild performance: They had been using<BR>
their giant aircraft as distress flags.<BR>
    Burrell fully recovered from her injuries and replaced here wreaked 210<BR>
with a Cessna 182. Meanwhile, she and the Holman family were adopted as<BR>
honorary members of the 446th. They celebrated their good fortune over an<BR>
Air Force barbecue."<BR>
<BR>
                            - William Garvey<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
<BR>
As I said, several nuggets.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
William <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 22:01:15 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: ship cost<BR>
<BR>
On 11/25/99 at 07:22 PM,  Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Kyle replied:<BR>
>Well, IMTU as I've said it's from the old GURPS:<BR>
>Space, so everything's cheaper... There are different<BR>
>classes of hull available, though. I think we can all<BR>
>imagine the difference between the hull on a four seat<BR>
>Piper and an Apache! Also, the electronics is a huge<BR>
>part of the cost. Military ships have much more<BR>
>sophisticated systems overall. There's a big<BR>
>difference in cost between collision-avoidance radar<BR>
>and military targeting head-up-displays, and so on. If<BR>
>anybody is interested in the exact costs, email me<BR>
>privately and I'll send them, but it works out that<BR>
>your standard free trader, unarmed, no stealth<BR>
>ability, just enough engines to get it off largish<BR>
>earth-type planets, Jump-1, a hull that's internally<BR>
>tough but not armoured, and staterooms for the PCs,<BR>
>about a quarter its volume for cargo, that'll set PCs<BR>
>back, new, 500 kCr. Whereas your military fighter<BR>
>ship, hugely manoeuverable, well armed and armoured,<BR>
>sophisticated electronics and so on, will set you back<BR>
>18 MCr.<BR>
<BR>
Hum, I roughed out a 200dton Jump 1 ship, no weapons, minimal hull,<BR>
and not many extras...it ran about 8 million new.  That's *far*<BR>
cheaper than other traveller systems, but still expensive for a PC<BR>
group.  By it used for 50%, make a 10% downpayment and the PC's have<BR>
to come up with 400,000 cr. That's doable for a group. <BR>
<BR>
In most Traveller settings the interest rate on Ship loans is<BR>
something like 3%.  In GURPS I think the normal rates are more like<BR>
8 to 12%.  If you lower the initial price, I think you need to raise<BR>
the interest rate to keep monthly payments about the same.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 22:05:26 -0600<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Inetability of government failure<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I duuno, as a good card carrying socialist (yeah, literally. Member of<BR>
the Democratic Socialists of America. Was quite a fun membership card to<BR>
pull out in the middle of political debates at Army Reserve drills... But I<BR>
digress badly.), I think your probably right. The nice thing about this<BR>
analysis is that it points out why the current dynasty will fall - even to<BR>
us foreigners it's increasingly obvious that the population is coming to<BR>
believe that the government no longer has the "Mandate of Heaven".<BR>
<BR>
In China, that's all that matters.<BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
on 25/11/1999 5:40 PM, Traveller-digest at<BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
>> Subject: Re: Inetability of government failure<BR>
> <BR>
>> It also depends what you call a "government," that is,<BR>
>> what sort of events would make it no longer the same<BR>
>> government? I'm thinking particularly of the Roman<BR>
>> Empire, which began around 750 BCE, rose to its first<BR>
> <BR>
> That's a good question.  One can fairly argue that China had the same<BR>
> government from the time Qin consolidated power in the central part of<BR>
> the region about 450 BCE (I think I have the date close to correct)<BR>
> until 1949.  While dynasties holding the throne changed at various<BR>
> times, the central functions of government -- bureaucracy, education,<BR>
> military, religious rites -- continued more or less normally.  Even the<BR>
> Mongols simply became Chinese emperors after a generation.<BR>
> <BR>
> One can even argue that the communists, too, just became Chinese<BR>
> emperors, but I don't want to get into a flame war with the Marxists on<BR>
> the list.<BR>
> <BR>
> - --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:35:44 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED God bless America<BR>
<BR>
Me:<BR>
<BR>
>It has an active bill of rights. Sure this might (and has been) ignored in<BR>
>playing the game of nations (eg during the cold war) but by and large its<BR>
>still a pretty good thing. This in turn influences how it behaves to others<BR>
>and it is more inclined to 'go into bat' for the little people now, more<BR>
>than ever with the demise of the cold war as they don't have to worry about<BR>
>encroaching on Russia's sphere of influence.<BR>
 <BR>
     John:<BR>
The problem is that the Bill of Rights, as well as labor and environmental<BR>
laws only apply within its borders.  In the 3rd world Pax Americana mostly<BR>
seems to mean freedom for US corporations to screw the locals, with<BR>
practices ranging from killing labor organizers (as has happened in several<BR>
African nations) to actual use of slave labor, or work agreements with<BR>
nations who use slave labor (for example the PRC). <BR>
<BR>
I don't know if you can label them as US corporations, they're<BR>
multi-nationals. Sure most of the biggies are US born, bred and based, but<BR>
they're screwing everyone. However the share-holders of said corps<BR>
invariably come from the wealthy west and the US is the biggest chunk of<BR>
that particular unsavory pie. <BR>
	<BR>
John again:<BR>
		It's great for US consumers, but w/o effective resistance<BR>
the US is free to suck the 3rd world dry.  It actually looks a lot like the<BR>
earliest parts of the 3rd Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
Good call.<BR>
<BR>
	John some more:<BR>
		While a US-run world government might end up somewhat more<BR>
free on average (though I'm fairly sure negative economies of scale would<BR>
make the effort a disaster) the Pax American is in part merely a grand<BR>
neocolonial moneymaking endeavor. <BR>
<BR>
It's not US run, more US led -  rather Pax America facilities and  doesn't<BR>
necessarily dominate (though in practice it more often than not does).<BR>
Although this is because it is rich, rich, rich, capitalistic and so are its<BR>
G8 chums (except Russia - are they a part?) and it's true that corps do get<BR>
a largely free reign. Be that as it may, most in the US have a social,<BR>
environmental and ethical conscience and they do exercise that right. We<BR>
know what multi-nationals are doing, and although they might be having a<BR>
more profitable time thanks to 'Yay Capitalism', us socialistic types of the<BR>
western world are slowly putting the kybosh on the more un-palatable parts.<BR>
Unfortunately very very very slowly and in cleaning up our own yard more, we<BR>
can pollute others. For example, the clamping down on Tobacco in the US<BR>
means better and more secure profits are to be had, in say asia, where sexy<BR>
chicks strut the street handling out free packs of Marlborough and smoking<BR>
controls are non-existent. <BR>
 <BR>
Dang! I can see where you are coming from. But in a free, healthy middle<BR>
class society with a good dose of 'what is right' we can and do change<BR>
policy. In Aust. we are seeing shame lists of dirty corporations<BR>
proliferating and the government itself has a black-ban on purchasing<BR>
services or products against those that violate these rules. Hell, look at<BR>
the 60's.<BR>
<BR>
	John:<BR>
		Note that Saddam Hussein remains in power despite the<BR>
atrocities he's inflicted on his own people and others. However, the US made<BR>
sure to keep cheap oil coming out of Kuwait and Saudi.  It looks like the<BR>
motives involved have much more to do with money than with anything else.<BR>
<BR>
Again you have a point. But it's not just the oil. US DOD could not go for<BR>
all of Iraq, they didn't have the mandate, it went against the heart of 'we<BR>
don't fight if we can't win and get out' and it would have caused a<BR>
sh*tstorm for the next 100 years geo-politically speaking (especially with a<BR>
then still mean and capable Russia & co). And it's not just 'cause of oil -<BR>
no-one can accuse the US of putting economics in front in Bosnia, though it<BR>
took them literally years to get in there (no oil). <Oh this is my opinion,<BR>
it has nothing to do with ADOD>. <BR>
<BR>
Okay, so Pax Americana has its flaws. But we can see them and that's a<BR>
start.<BR>
<BR>
And I like Friends. Is that bad <g><BR>
<BR>
Chandler funnee.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller; Pax Americana is kind of like the Imperium in attempting to<BR>
foster free trade and a 'no fighting within our sphere' mentality. And the<BR>
atmosphere of Zhodant & Spinward  felt much like that of the Cold war (which<BR>
became hot on a frequent basis). Gosh I love this game. So very much for so<BR>
very little (US$12.95 plus p/h). <BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:30:37 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Remulak<BR>
<BR>
>> Oh really? And IYTU, is Remulak the home of the Coneheads and do you<BR>
>>  have racial stats for them? And are they considered a Major Race? Or is<BR>
>>  it an old Terran/Solomani colony whose original colonists came from<BR>
France?<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  And I thought having Ming the Merciless was BAD....;) ;)<BR>
><BR>
>Not to mention the existence of New Greenpernt not too far away from there.<BR>
><BR>
>Obviously some of the early Terran surveyors to rimward had very odd senses<BR>
>of humor.<BR>
<BR>
Then there's a world in the Albadawi Subsector, Solomani Rim 0330,<BR>
that I wonder about. Specifically, if a native of this world would<BR>
travel to Terra, would they become super-strong and invulnerable?<BR>
And when is the planet going to explode? I am, of course, speaking<BR>
of Krypton...<BR>
<BR>
- -- g<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:42:36 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
>Is this 'the Cassini Division' you're talking about? It's a while <BR>
>since I read it. (Star Faction / Sky Road? and the Stone Canal being <BR>
>the others I remember).<BR>
<BR>
The only Cassini Division I know is the one in the Interplanetary<BR>
GravBall League (IGBL), one of four divisions in the league (along with<BR>
the Hubble, Tycho, and Galileo divisions), consisting of the teams<BR>
representing Ganymede, Io, Titan, Vesta, and Miranda. BTW, Neptune is<BR>
heavily favoured to win this year's Solar Cup...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav (and serious): are there professional sports in the 3I? And are<BR>
they at any kind of interstellar level? (Road trips would be very long...)<BR>
<BR>
- -- g<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:50:56 +1300<BR>
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Skipping & ship cost<BR>
<BR>
> I don't imagine the banks loading up their 'how to prevent a skip'<BR>
computer<BR>
> hardware/software with substandard or easily bustable codes. That would be<BR>
> stoopid. Given the vast amount of monies invested, there would have to be<BR>
a<BR>
> way to prevent skipping. And given that communication is limited to jump,<BR>
> and a vessel could jump anywhere, then that prevention would have to be on<BR>
> the ship itself. Especially as the collateral for the loan is usually the<BR>
> ship itself for small time merchants.<BR>
<BR>
<non-lurker mode><BR>
<BR>
Adventure idea... some rogue bank decides to extend your ship loan<BR>
indefinately 'cause you pissed them off by attempting to pay it faster than<BR>
they want you to (interest and all that)... you have to break into the<BR>
*bank* to get the system for recoding your ship... (hey, don't break the<BR>
codes, go to the source!)<BR>
<BR>
</non-lurker mode><BR>
<BR>
Mike.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1399<BR>
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